Sunday, August 20, 2006

More Moral Than God, Part 1

Well folks, that was a bit of an exciting week for us Sgt TF Boggs fans, wasn’t it. For TFMom and I, that was the first time we’ve ‘seen’ our young’n in 9 months or so. He didn’t look particularly malnourished to me. His mom was happy he didn’t need to have any incidents of ‘soldier-potty-mouth’ bleeped. When he started his first answer with “Wellll Neil,...”, I thought he might have taken the advice I gave him earlier in the day to have a pint of Guinness one hour before the interview. Got to love the compliment he paid Cavuto at the end. Never hurts to suck up a little, agreed?

Just got an email today from him, the first since his network debut. It was not, as I expected, telling us that he’d signed with the William Morris Agency, but rather that “he’s having a blast”. The weather in Scotland has been 17-19 C (low 60's for us). Nice change of pace, for sure, but I hope his system can take the shock of end-of-August Iraq that he’ll be experiencing in a week or so.

We were somewhat worried, when Buck Sargent ( got extended with his unit, that Tim’s might also get extended. His reply to that was, “Don’t think they really need battle-hardened main gate guards, Dad.”

Thanks to everyone for the grand conversation you all were having. I hated to end it with a new blog, but feel free not to respond to the actual post and free-associate merrily away.

I sort of promised the Sarge that, during this time while he’s gone and I’m minding the store, I would attempt to lay out an argument for this war from a Christian perspective. That is, I would try to present as compelling a case as I can for why a Christian has strong reasons to be in favor of what America is attempting to do in response to the declared imperialistic intent of radical Muslims to destroy the non-Muslim world.

I don’t mean to state a just-war theory that would be found philosophically cogent by the intellectual crowd. I believe that truths that matter most ought to be capable of being explained to and understood by any intelligent 12 year old. I also don’t think such an argument should be found compelling only to Christians but to anybody who has not given away the common sense he was born with in exchange for the muddled mush of post-modern thought. If you don’t think, for instance, that a hatred of your enemy that exceeds your love for you children is evil and wrong and self-destructive, then we don’t speak the same language. If you believe you have both a right and a duty to kill fellow human beings because they don’t believe in your God, then you have determined that human discourse is irrelevant and impossible.

It saddens me to increasingly find that Christians too, have been brainwashed by the effects of post-modernism to the point that they can’t recognize the difference between good and profound evil. In Scott Peck’s book People Of The Lie, he tells of different case stories of such people; people that all suffered from extreme narcissism. One set of parents gave, as a Christmas present to their only son, the rifle used by his older brother to commit suicide. When Peck asked them why they would do such a thing they had no clue as to the inappropriateness of the ‘gift’ and replied, “Why not, it’s a perfectly good gun!”

If you can’t see the difference between 1) an Israeli doctor who treats Arabs and Jews in his emergency room as equally deserving his care and 2) the terrorist who soaks the nails in rat poison before packing them in a suicide belt to be strapped on the body of a retarded teenager and sending him to a pizza parlor; or between the two societies that each come from and by which each are regarded as great and moral persons, then you have lost something crucial to your humanity. Are all Americans, all U.S. soldiers, all Israeli’s always morally good people? No. Are all Palestinians, all Arabs, all Muslims morally bad people? No. Is there at present a fundamentally moral difference between the two cultures out of which these two sets of people come? Very definitely- yes!

If you can no longer see these distinctions or if you think that I am too simple to grasp that life simply is not that black and white, then I say “fine. We are at an impasse and our ways of reasoning are incompatible and further discussion is a waste of time for both of us. This may be sad but it’s a fact. Have a great life!”

My plea is to those who can and do make these distinctions.

So, I think the question is, How can Christianity not be incompatible with warfare?

Sorry for the double negative but the presumption today is that Christians ought to be passivists. Jesus, after all, was the one who said- “Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matt 5.39) He also said- “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” (Matt 5.9) And also, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” (Matt 5.44) How can these and other similar sayings not decide the matter and the answer is, Christianity IS incompatible with war?

Well, class, I think that’s enough for tonight. See you back here in a couple days. Feel free to discuss....


Anonymous said...

Aha, a real cliff hanger, tfdad! Will stay tuned.

William Eaton's Last Stand said...

Do I correctly recall somewhere reading/seeing that Jesus once said that he'd come to bring a sword?

Either way, I can think of a verse (though I can't quote or remember where in The Bible I read it) about following our leaders because God has chosen them and their will is God's will; that fairly effectively neutralizes any "Christian" argument against the war.

Maybe this is because I'm not a Christian, but I see a "Christian case for war" as somewhat moot and a bit redundant. I think the reasons for us to be in Iraq today [should be] equally compelling to Christians, Atheists, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims alike. Indeed, a Ba'athist Iraq was a world destabilizing presence and Radical Islam is a cancer which threatens ALL people. To indefinitely ignore the former or to concede defeat to the latter are both horrifying policy choices when one considers their implications.

I see you're more or less addressing the "Christian Pacifist" demographic, but in my dealings with the faithful I've found that you had better love making your case A LOT more than you love changing minds.

Anonymous said...

Me thinks you have TMS syndrome, tfdad. Some put down the TMS (trouble making streak) but being Scottish we find it comes in handy. It is part of our genetic makeup. We have a chromate, phosphate and a TMS. And as when someone asked William Wallace where he was going he replied, "I'm goin' ta pick a fight." Good luck and may the best man (Scottsman) win in this debate. Excuse me but I think I will not weigh yet, but go have a pint and wait for the other fools to wade in first. With much respect, tfdad,

Susan said...

Gosh, it never occurred to me that Christians, or anyone else, should *not* fight evil. By doing nothing, we allow evil full and free rein.

I just re-read the part in Matthew that you mentioned. It seems more on a one to one basis, to show to someone else the benefit of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. He seems to be speaking to the Apostles and disciples about how they should present themselves in the world.

Jeus often said things that indicated there was a definite division between the behavior of mankind and the behavior of governments. If he is talking with his disciples about Godly things, and not discussing how governments should behave, the meaning is different.

Just some thoughts of mine, not definitive at all. =)

Anonymous said...

Thanks Susan for your thoughts. I will carry them one step further. Jesus was speaking to his people concerning the Kingdom which he would rule over and was giving the "Constitution" for that kingdom over which he would reign physically. That kingdom as well as the king was rejected at the time and He instead went to the cross and died for the sins of men, was buried and rose again. Hence that kingdom was set aside until he returns to judge the nations and set that kingdom up here on earth when He will reign in person. We now live in the "church age" where "whosoever will" may come by faith in Him. That is what makes you a christian and not following the Golden Rule, which is good but is not the foundation for ones faith. The Sermon on the Mount that tfdad quotes from is not the gospel but is His format for rule in His Kingdom when it happens. It is not our current constitution but it does express the mind of God. Obviously the meek don't inherit the earth right now and the blessings listed do not happen presently. We live in a wicked old world and as christians should promote peace as far as itis possible and support our country, wherever we live to this end. Obviously that is not always possible and we should support even war if that is what it takes to remain free from tyrants who hinder a society from being free to give out the truth and live peaceably. More thoughts, Susan, that you made me think about. Thanks

Margarita said...

Christianity is awesome! We just have to be aware and cautious of the fact it has a tendency to be hijacked and corrupted; throughout history humanity has waged wars and commited heinous atrocities all in Jesus's name. We all have extremists (Christian, Islamic, ect.) who have wormed themselves into strong positions of power and have polluted the Spiritual with Worldly irrelevancies; where is the structure / importance of government expressed by Jesus in the Bible?

Furthermore, it should be obvious who you are turning to when you are turning away from Jesus's teachings.

The hardest concept I've grappled with is the truth of Sin; in God's eyes, all sin is equal. Therefore, there is no difference between commiting a petty theft or engaging in bloody murder. I think of it as a totally unjust and unfair concept, but then I ask myself... "Who am I to pass Justice?" The Bible is very clear that it is God and Him alone who is the Ultimate Judge and Decider.

Anon: "It is not our current constitution but it does express the mind of God."... Oh?

t.h. snure said...

You've got me on the edge of my seat! I think I know where you are going, but I can't wait for the sequel.


Anonymous said...

Interesting blog tfdad. I Have a feeling you won't get much response though. Americans have been intimidated so long now to keep their christianity to themselves that they do. Okay to study the Koran so we can understand Muslims but don't study the Bible and if you do don't let it affect your life. Not PC tfdad. Some want to spiritualize it all and see no relevence to daily living and though Jesus is the Head of the church we tend to do our own decision making without considering what He says. People can comment on just about any other subject with some sort of authority in their voice but I bet you get few who will comment on what God says about war and government and our place in the world. What a shame. Could explain many things thought. I think you are a brave man to blog on this subject which should be easy to speak about but has been made difficult because of intimidation and ignorance. It will be interesting to see where you take it. Thanks

jgr said...

I suspect some of your answer must come from the Old Testament.

Who deals with evil there and how?

It's worth noting that much of the Western world's pacificism (man's pacificism) also is frequently anti-Christian by its own admission.

This blog, by the way, is a fine one.

Anonymous said...

If I may restate what I believe TFDAD is asking: “From a Christian perspective, are wars justified?”. The answer to that is that some wars are justified. Romans 13:4 states “for it (the government) is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.” (emphasis mine). This means that the government is allowed to use the sword (ie: capital punishment and wars) against those that do or practice evil.

Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons (WMD) against his own people as well as his neighbors (Iran), invaded two of his neighbors (Iran and Kuwait), and has committed mass murder against the religious majority within his own country. By the biblical (or any sane) definition, this is evil! Therefore, yes, the war in Iraq is justified biblically and Christians should support it. This is independent of the evil personified through Al-Queda and all other radical Islamic fundamentalism that seeks to destroy the US. Although there also, Romans 13 allows our government to pursue and remove their threat.
Joe in KC

Melinda said...

I'm sure I'm a thorn in the side of my children's teachers, but we have had numerous conversations about this "everyone is equal" and "everyone should be treated the same as everyone else even if they are breaking rules/being a brat/hurting you" and "everyone is your friend."


In America, it's a wonderful thing that everyone has the OPPORTUNITY to do great things, better themselves and earn the respect of others.

Nothing is owed to anyone in this world. My mom always told me that I might be pretty great in her eyes for doing nothing more than breathing, but "out there", I'd have to work for it. I consider that one of her greatest gifts to me that I plan to also give my children.

Humans will rise to the expectations set for them. By continually pushing the bar lower and allowing them to wallow in self pity and self-imposed helplessness, we do more damage than good.

Thanks for another great post, TFDad.

Anonymous said...

First, aren't mothers a wonderful thing. I cherish mine and hope my children will see me the same way. One of the biggest battles for a mother is the PC schools we have to send our children too. Being called in because your child has offended somebody because he bowed his head to thank God for his food in the cafeteria, yet had he been passing around a Koran nobody would have said anything. Government was created by God for our benefit as society needs limits and laws, penalties for crimes against society. I agree with the previous commenter. But in our form of Government we should have a say in those laws. We have been liberalized and not only are our institutions far from what they should be but our right to go to war to defend our citizens from Islamic terrorism is questioned. It is the old liberal lie no matter what you call it or what institution proclaims it.
I thank the commenters for their thoughtful contributions to tfdad's blog. I learn from all of you. Neatie

Ironside said...

Mat 10:34 was the verse you were looking for: "Do not assume I have come to bring peace to the earth, I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." (So as not to take it out of context:) 10:35- "For I shall turn a man against his father/ a daughter against her mother,...:36 ..."a man's enemies will be the members of his own household". This is sometimes interpreted as being a spiritual conflict, but as we've seen from ALL of history, spiritual conflicts have a nasty habit of spilling into the physical. I absolutely believe in turning the other cheek. But guess what? I've only got two cheeks. America is fresh out.

Anonymous said...

Perfect! Thanks. Can't really add to that but another thought on division. The truth always divides. You believe it and act accordingly or you reject it and act accordingly. No matter what the truth concerns. The liberal lie really started in the Garden of Eden where Satan put doubt in Eve's mind that God has our best interest at heart, Genesis Chapter 3, and has been repeated throughout history to this very day. It has been called many things but is The Big Lie. The liars describe a Jesus that does not exsist in the Bible or in reality at all. They misrepresent Him and fortunately the Written word tells us the truth of the Living Word, Jesus, so we do not have to be confused. Thanks Ironside.

Margarita said...

What leaps of (il)logic in these posts! Thank you all for reaffirming my belief that there exists The Separation of Church and State for a reason.

Anonymous said...

Margarita, How is it that you consider historical fact illogical? Have you actually read any of our founding documents such as the Constitution and Declaration of Independence? An interesting phrase you chose "Separation of church and state". No doubt you, as all liberals got this from Thomas Jefferson's personal letter. Did you know that Thomas Jefferson wrote that in answer to concerned church-goers, who were concerned that the govt would remove christianity from the public place? His response was to assure them that the govt would not sponsor a state religion. Did he believe or act in a "separation of church and state" as liberals today would have us believe? He sponsored, and paid for, the first congressional chaplain, and attended church services in the senate chambers on sunday! If you believe that you have evolved a higher set of morals and standards than an omniscient God, feel free to create your own eden. Preferably outside the United States.
Joe in KC

Anonymous said...

Hummm tfdad...Do I start to see division among us? Could that sword of God, the truth, actually be doing what He claimed it would do? A very interesting and timely blog tfdad. I want more!!!
I might remind you that whosoever will may come..not because man tells you but because God loves you.

Anonymous said...

Margarita...this is a debate and not an insult but did you realize that you started out by saying Christianity was awesome, digressed to turning Jesus into a mear teacher and moralist instead of The Son of God Who came to seek and to save that which was lost and Who would reture to judge nations, set up His Kingdom and rule with the rod of iron? The whole Bible needs to be read from beginning to end, not just a few chapters to make a case that the Bible does not claim. Then you regressed further by espousing the liberal line of separation of church and state. I am not arguing with you, only pointing out your own illogic. If you honestly seek the truth why don't you read God's total word for yourself before calling christians illogical. Faith is not a leap into the dark. He laid it all out logically if you take the time to study what he actually is telling us. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Ooops forgot to sign 1:09 is Neatie. Don't want anyone else getting the blame. Neatie

Anonymous said...

To all readers of Sgt. Boggs blog: The Islamic terrorists have once again shown how evil they are with the kidnapping of the two Fox News correspondents. We hope many prayers will go up for them and that many eyes will be opened to the evil character of our enemy and the evil character of all who support them. This is reality. Look it in the face and then say that we Americans should be pacifists in the face of such evil. There is no justification for ignorance or for pacifism in this country.

David M said...

Bravo Dad! Wonderful thougths here...can't wait to read more, especially in the comments!

Margarita said...

Joe --> What "historical fact" exactly are you referring to? I don't see your analysis as anything but an opinion or perspective. I should have been clearer: illogical are many of the statements in your first post.

...This means that the government is allowed to use the sword (ie: capital punishment and wars) against those that do or practice evil.

And another's comment: "Government was created by God for our benefit as society needs limits and laws, penalties for crimes against society."

Beyond illogical, (as I believe those statements to be because no where in the Bible is there a blue print for The Perfect Earthly Government) how arrogant are we to think that our Government was chosen by God and enforced in the Bible? Are we claiming to know the mind of God? These are some very serious questions!

Before I continue, let me digress somewhat; Yes, I have read our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution and no where does it ever mention "God." What are your favorite parts? Like Washington, Jefferson was also a Deist and NOT a Christian as it is frequently assumed. To be sure, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." are wonderful sentiments but a bit hypocritical nonetheless as none of these rights were extended to women, slaves, or Natives. And of course they would attend Church, everyone in those days did. And Lord have mercy on you if you couldn't sing!

Now Joe, allow me to preface this time: I suppose that depending on which denomination one subscribes to, one may indeed interpret "sword" as being quite literal. Others (like myself), however, who have studied some scripture (not to say you have not, you obviously share a different perspective and are well versed) have noticed the particular habit of intense hyperbole associated with many of the Biblical prophets. They frequently used allegories and figurative speech to evoke strong emotional responses and their words were not always to be taken at face value.

Furthermore, if it was to be taken so seriously why wouldn't there be more instances to select from that supposedly further condone war and capital punishment as you say (as it is sanctioned in the Qua'ran, for example)? Why is there such a profound amount of material in comparison that exhaustingly advocates and promotes peace and tolerance and non-judgement? Again, that is why I'm likely to believe Matthew 10:34 is meaning something else entirely. Let's us use the context!

The sword, I think, symbolizes among many things a certain divisiveness between followers of Christ and non-followers: He wants to spread the message that "the kingdom of heaven is near" and so he sends out his disciples to "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons." (Matthew 10:7-8) And Jesus proclaims "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves" (Matthew 10:16) ... **Kind've like we all do, right? ;) **

But the mission is not without danger! "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles." (Matthew 10:17-18) And he continues, "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:26-28)

And finally..."Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. " ... Coming from Jesus's own lips, (a man notoriously known as pacifistic and one who advocates "turning the other cheek") perhaps this was especially startling and evoked the proper emotional reaction he desired! We shouldn't be "peaceful" by keeping this Glorious Truth of Him ("a sword", in the most dramatic terms) to ourselves or attempt to hide it out of fear of "those who kill the [our] body." The key here is to look at the meaning of the sword: it is used to kill, to punish, and He who weilds it is again the Ultimate Punisher. In my opinion Jesus came here to "stir things up" (spread his message) and shake the system (unraveling social mores) and in my eyes he totally fulfilled this prophecy.

Oh yes, he was quite a liberal for the times, consorting with prostitutes (actual women, GASP!) and the poor and his enemies and all that--very scandalous and counter to the actions for the society of that day. So why ya'll so frivolously fling that label around (as if it is a bad thing) is beyond me. Moreover, have I come off as equally snarky with the "conservative" branding? (Has it even been mentioned before now?) Are all my points null and void because they are different from yours? "WWJD?" has ever been more appropriate!

Margarita said...

Neatie --> It was not my intention to turn Jesus simply into a mere teacher or moralist; I would like to think I recognize more of who he is and what he represents. Sorry about that. However, that being said, a teacher and moralist he inarguably was!

I agree with you and fully embrace the logic of His Word! I prefer to approach most things in just that fashion. But, I have also come to realize that with Christianity a certain amount of Faith is required... =)

Anonymous said...

Thank you Margarita for your comment. Yes, faith is an important element. Ephesians Chapter 2 vs 8&9. But remember that faith can be placed and misplaced in many things. That's why it is so important to know Who we are putting our faith in, not a Jesus that fits what we want Him to be, but the Jesus that He really is. Yes, since He is the moral God (Holy) He would be the ultimate teacher. After all, christianity is a personal relationship with Him and we can't expect to know another human being without listening to them speak, being around them and watching their actions and learning about them. It is no different with Him. We by faith in Him become christians but it is a continual growth of getting to know Him personally. It is His pleasure though....He tells us that. Now that is Awesome. :)

Anonymous said...

You bring up many good points. There is not space here to respond satisfactorily but I will be brief. God set up human Government after the great flood. Read account after flood. Not a particular government. He also provided the death penalty because of the evil hearts of men. Before then man had no government. A dictatorship would work IF the dictator was a good person with his subjects best interests at heart. Unfortunately that has never been the case and total power totally corrupts. I like our form of Government because we at least have some power to rid ourselves of corrupt leaders without bloodshed. He did not set up a particular government - but government. Secondly, Jesus was making a legitamate offer of His Kingdom to the Jewish Nation at that time in Matthew that you speak of. You have to consider the context, who was He talking to, and what was He saying. They rejected His offer. He then went on to die for our sins and to raise from the dead. He deals with those who believe in Him today differently because we are not the Jewish Nation, we are His Church. He has given us a particular thing to do, give out the Good News, no matter what human Government we live under. In some places christians are murdered for doing so. I know this as fact. I have no doubt if you just keep reading the Bible, His Word, He will show you the answers you seek. He said He would and He is trustworthy. A better sense of History from beginning to end (prophetic) will make all clear to you. Read the Bible for yourself with your questions in mind, search the scriptures. Maybe tfdad will have some of those scriptures that you question us about or other commenters. I've said enough. Thanks

Anonymous said...

Dear TFDad & TFBoggs:
I have been reading more blogs than I respond to and do maintain my favorites.

I will continue to read your's for sure and I thank you both for sharing your views and letting the truth be known.

You have my heartfelt wishes for success and my prayers for your return home soon.

America is great with honest folks like you and the world becomes greater when you share your stories.

Ed Miller
Tampa, Florida

P.S. I am very much looking forward to Part 2.

jgr said...

Margarita says: ' Like Washington, Jefferson was also a Deist and NOT a Christian as it is frequently assumed."

Actually not.
"The God that Washington prayed to, and described in all his public utterances, bears little resemblance to the watchmaker god of the deists. From the watchmaker god one does not expect miracles.. Washington's God, on the other hand, seems very like the Lord God described in the Hebrew Torah, historical books, and Psalms, who in furthering his own designs interposes himself in history.."
(p.119,120) "Washington's God," by MIchael and Jana Novak (2006).

Washington's faith in miracles gave us this country, Margarita. You may read '1776,' by David McCullough, to see the miracle God performed during the times 'that try men's souls' (Paine). That we became America is that miracle of God.

Margarita, We were born a Christian nation. God's Hand has been present throughout American history, which any American acknowledges each Thanksgiving Day.

You play with words in your statements, and slight the deep roots of our Godly founding, from the Pilgrims; to most state constitutions; to George Washington's embrace of the Bible in his first Oath of Office. I suspect more than a little of the secular devil touches your reasoning.

He--or YOU--who labels America an atheist state simply lies. I suspect if the many millions of Americans who over the centuries have kept this a Christian country-- living and dying by that Faith-- could stand here today, they would emphatically condemn you, and reject your foreign assumption.

Margarita says: "how arrogant are we to think that our Government was chosen by God and enforced in the Bible? Are we claiming to know the mind of God?"

The prayers of Benjamin Franklin and the First Congress were to God. Those men (and women; I am thinking of the instance of Abigail Adams) may indeed be cast as 'arrogant'-- but they risked all--fortune, life, 'sacred honor'-- in that belief.
Are you that brave, Margarita? What have you risked for YOUR country? But you possess the power to judge those whom generations have honored for THEIR sacrifices?!

I think not.

Our Founders claimed to seek the will of God. And they claimed, as we must today, to be His people.

Elizabeth said...

tfdad, I could have a long conversation with you about the misinformation, propaganda and lies that you have been subjected to that have led you to your erroneous conclusions, but this would involve my having to send you articles and books that you would probably never read, and I don't want to waste my money. Also, there is the distinct possibility that you actually have no interest in facts and information, because they might disturb your precious illusion of American moral superiority, which maybe you depend on to keep up your I'm going to skip it. If, one day, you decide you want to find out actual facts about what has been happening in the world, please don't hesitate to contact me, and I will send you the information.

William Eaton's Last Stand said...

"...but this would involve my having to send you articles and books that you would probably never read..."

And all of which fall apart the moment their theses are subjected to a single critical thought or full historical context (at least if the pattern I've seen so far with your sources continues to hold true).

Tell me, do you try to be this ridiculous, haughty cartoon you present here or do you really take yourself seriously?

Margarita said...

Wow! I was totally agreeing with you up until the point of "We were born a Christian nation" and then afterwards where you were trying to be offensive by accusing me of being touched by the "secular devil". What exactly does that mean? How can one be a secularist and be touched by the devil at the same time? Let's examine the definition of "secular", shall we...

1.of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.
2.not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred): secular music.
3.(of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.
4.(of members of the clergy) not belonging to a religious order; not bound by monastic vows (opposed to regular).
5.occurring or celebrated once in an age or century: the secular games of Rome.
6.going on from age to age; continuing through long ages.
7.a layperson. of the secular clergy.

So, technically, one who is secular does not believe in a religion. Satanism is a religion, (Satanists worship the devil, by the way) so yes, "secular devil" is in fact an oxymoron. You still bring up a fantastic point: was our beloved Washington a secularist? Politically he was (he expressed similar views to mine on religious pluralism in America) and on the subject of governments this is all that matters. On a personal basis that is between him and God. Really, am I not right? Did it matter more that he was a good man/leader for our country or that he believed in your God?

Try again.

And lasty, jgr, asking questions is not a form of passing judgement; it engages in critical thinking! This is how I become comfortable with ideas--I like to think things over and weigh different perspectives before accepting the idea as truth. Where did I ever say America was an athiest country? Your comments come off as completely delusional because you are making ridiculous assumptions about me! You could try asking me questions but that might ruin your non-arguments about me.

Lynnette in Minnesota said...

Elizabeth, dear...there's something called a library. No need to waste your money. If you have books or articles you want to recommend, please do so. If not, then why comment?

T.F. Boggs dad,

Interesting post. I'm looking forward to Part 2.

Anonymous said...

Why does it bother people that we can call Israel a jewish nation when in fact not all genetic jews are of the jewish faith and we can call many nations Muslim nations when not all citizens are muslims but we can not call the United States a christian nation despite the fact that not all citizens are christian. Not that it really matters all that much. We did call the Soviet Union the first atheistic nation although there were secret believers there. But it always burns butts if anyone even hits that in the beginning our country was Christian, meaning it stood for christian principles and God was considered at the beginning. Must mean something for all you critical thinkers out there who like to get questions asked of you. Oh how far critical thinking has fallen. (that is my humble noncritical thinking anyway) Sort of like christianity in our country.

Anonymous said...

I bet half of the people here want to murder Atheists.

Anonymous said...

Naugh- - I don't want to murder athiest. They got a hard enough row to hoe. God says "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God."

Elizabeth said...

I did recommend some books, in a previous comment.

I'm thinking of changing my blog's name to "Elizabeth's Last Stand," so I can sound more self-important and histrionic.

Anonymous said...

You can spray a pile of horse manure with perfume but it is still horse manure. That is a type of humor Elizabeth.

Margarita said...

I'm usually against sweeping generalizations--they mischaracterize and impress upon the uninformed. That is why it is a good thing to use your brain! Intellectualism can be overrated but anti-intellectualism is an avenue of the ignorant and can prove dangerous; the Dark One revels in that naivete and ignorance because it makes people easier to control. That's just my personal opinion.

I found a good link on religion of the founding Fathers, so read for yourself: